The aus.culture.gothic FAQ is maintained by:
Artemisia (octopus#ihug.co.nz), Blackduck (niina#zip.com.au), Kevin J.E.V. Bonham (k_bonham#postoffice.utas.edu.au), Daniel Bulte (dp_bulte#postoffice.utas.edu.au), Katherine Burke (kateb#alphalink.com.au), Peter Caffin (pc#it.net.au), Jo Cramer (Jo.Cramer#anu.edu.au) David Gerard (fun#suburbia.net), Jen Radon (jar#sysalt.com), Silbert family (msilbert#ihug.co.nz), Michelle Wauchope (miche#adelaide.dialix.oz.au), Leon D. Wild (wildl#fisher.biz.usyd.edu.au), wrAEth (stranger#powerup.com.au).
Permission is granted to print out this FAQ for personal use. Permission is not granted for general distribution unless by permission. This includes mirroring it at another site.
NEWSGROUP NAME: aus.culture.gothic
MODERATOR STATUS: Unmoderated
BRIEF DESCRIPTION: The Gothic subculture in Australia
NEWSGROUP CHARTER: This newsgroup is devoted to discussions of the music, fashion, ideologies and interests of those who consider themselves within the Gothic subculture in Australasia. It is primarily intended to allow for a better forum for the discussion of specifically local issues which may not be of interest to those living in other countries. It is also intended to provide people from Australasia with their own forum for discussion of general issues in the Gothic subculture and to receive information and reasonable announcements which are relevant to them and to their interests in the Gothic subculture.
NEWSGROUP CREATION DATE: Monday, 4 December, 1995.
PROPONENT: Referral For Discussion (RFD) posted on 23 Nov 1995 by Peter Caffin.
NEWSGROUP FAQ URL: http://vurt.net/acg/faq/index.html
The current charter was voted in during July 1998. The original charter can be viewed in the above RFD. The results of the vote were posted to aus.culture.gothic by Peter Caffin on 20 Jul 1998.
aus.culture.gothic is a relatively new newsgroup on the scene, created to compliment existing international newsgroups. Its intention is to allow chat and in-jokes about goth in Australasia without unduly alarming or confusing the Americans ;-)
FAQs are also available for the following non-Australian goth newsgroups:
Other newsgroups possibly of interest to goths and protogoths:
alt.fan.the.cure, alt.fan.blade-runner, alt.fan.devo, alt.gothic.architecture, alt.gothic.culture, alt.gothic.music, alt.gothic.nights, alt.music.dead-kennedys, alt.music.depeche-mode, alt.music.gothic, alt.music.iggy-pop, alt.music.joydivision, alt.music.kmfdm, alt.music.leonard-cohen, alt.music.lou-reed, alt.music.marylin-manson, alt.music.ministry, alt.music.new-order, alt.music.nin, alt.music.pet-shop-boys, alt.music.pop.will.eat.itself, alt.music.ramones, alt.personals.gothic, rec.music.industrial.
The Resources section in the Net.Goth Directory at http://www.zenweb.com/pan/netgoth/ is also recommended for a general overview of gothic worldwide.
Aside from sheep jokes traded across the seas, Australian and NZ cultures are relatively similar. This newsgroup was created in order to allow goths to write about things that affect them that are Australasian in content or locale. Essentially, you'll be okay to post: (a) as an Australasian goth regarding something that interests you, or, (b) as someone with an interest in Australasian gothic.
We tend to be a pretty friendly newsgroup and try to be quite open to newcomers. However, you may find yourself flamed in aus.culture.gothic if:
Unfortunately, aus.culture.gothic came onto the scene just as the full force of the commercialisation of the internet hit the USA. As a result, many "joke" newgroupings occurred. This prompted many System Administrators to not allow automatic newgroupings.
The way to get aus.culture.gothic is to politely ask your System Administrator to add the group to their newsgroups list. You may even have to ask their newsfeed provider to add it before they can update their list. Persevere. It's worth it.
Chances are you've come across Usenet abbreviations. Abbreviations, smileys and common Usenet jargon seem to be best explained in the soc.singles FAQ at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/singles-faq/
Another abbreviation (commonly seen spanning whole lines of text) is Goth Code, used to give people an idea of who you are. A Goth Code can compiled for yourself by visiting http://code.goth.net/gothcode/. Peter Caffin has written a Goth.Code decoder. Version 0.9.2 can be obtained from http://it.net.au/~pc/software/gcd.html
"Hints on Writing Style for Usenet" at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/writing-style/part1/ suggests a better method of writing is to avoid abbreviations as much as possible.
alt.gothic has experienced what can happen when people just keep flaming; the number of articles attacking a set of posters becomes greater than the numbers actually writing on topic (!). As the numbers on the Internet grow, this will no doubt this will become a growing problem on the aus.* newsgroups.
Oddly enough, there are some who can only get attention by being flamed. They get their kicks by seeing what sort of reactions they can get from people. This can close down newsgroups as the reaction drowns out the on-topic conversation. The practice of trying it is called "Invasion." Pioneers of this profession were from a newsgroup called alt.syntax.tactical. Many try to emulate their tactics. On a newsgroup, when someone "trolls" for reactions, the best way to respond is to simply ignore them and write to the interesting people.
In reply to them (if you must) try to be informative to others and/or entertaining. Otherwise it may be you that next receives a grilling for encouraging them. If they continue posting, then your last option is to use a killfile and notify "alt.gothic Special-Forces".
Oh, look, yes we know that there was a tribe called the Visigothics, and yes we know that there is a strand in architecture called Gothic... That's not the point. For now, just take it as read that Gothic is also the name of a subculture that exists worldwide. The topic of where the name comes from is dealt with better in the Alt.Gothic Gothic FAQ.
With regard to the the subculture, peoples' opinions vary on whether gothic is "an attitude", "a fashion style", a "collective interest in similar things" or "just this group of guys and gals, y'know."
In November of 1998 the general consensus was "It's All About Cowboy Hats"...
Those with Visigothic tendencies (feeling like a bit of marauding, do we? ;-)), might be best looking at the article "Secret of the Gothick God of Darkness" by Edred Thorsson in Fringeware Review Issue 6(66) and The Ninth Night #3.
As one alt.syntax.tactical troller once put it: "there's nothing to most of these people except that they're a bunch of posers who like to wear mascara and draw funny looks and then come on the newsgroup and pretend to complain about how people point at them, when their aim in life is to be identified as posers. they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground." That's one way to look at goths.
Another way to think of it is that "gothic" is an adjective (a describing word) rather than a noun (a person or thing). Some things you -do- may certainly be gothic, and your presence in the subculture or having romantic notions of how the world is or should be certainly qualify, but, as a person you're an individual. If you tried to be the epitome of what's considered "gothic," people would start to wonder at your personal depth. No-one is, nor should be, either an archetype nor a stereotype: it just looks daft ;-).
Kevin J.E.V. Bonham wrote: "The term 'swampy' was widely used in Melbourne/Sydney/Brisbane about 7-10 years ago for fairly trashy looking, vaguely punkish types with not-quite-goth musical tastes (usually a lot of the Birthday Party/Nick Cave etc thing, sometimes a bit of Tom Waits or Lou Reed). Bit of an existentialist, alternative-theatre, market/cafe crowd. They weren't all that political. The only thing they cared about was heroin. (The term 'swampy' was also used to refer to members of the Socialist Workers Party and subsequent political follies, hence the confusion)".
The soc.culture.new-zealand Alternative FAQ at http://rschp2.anu.edu.au:8080/aidan/nz/nzfaq.html states:
"Bogans are youths who wear black jeans, basketball boots, black jerseys and black tee shirts. They have long hair at the back, short hair at the front. They listen to far too much AC/DC, Midnight Oil and U2 for their own good. They drive Holdens, and are typically called Wayne or Trev. They can be distinguished from Goths in that they usually have axle grease all over their hands, jerseys, etc and don't like The Sisters of Mercy and haven't heard of Bauhaus. Also, they usually have suntans and have no unwarranted suicidal tendencies. They play rugby league and drink DB Natural (beer coloured piss-water). The are singularly stupid, but are common all over New Zealand, especially in the small towns. The original Boguns are from, as far as we can work out, West Auckland - Henderson, Te Atatu, etc. The American equivalent would be Bruce Springsteen the Panelbeater."
This is quite accurate for Australia too, but, they're a bit of a dying breed. After continuing satirisation on mainstream television, young potential bogans (note the Australian spelling) are now becoming more influenced by American culture.
This is largely a Perth term. Between 1993 and 1996, a large gaggle of younger goths used to hang around outside the Perth General Post Office. Thus, POG stood for "Post Office Gothics" and was largely a derogatory term used by the older crowd. Most of the POGs of the time called themselves "the steps crowd" (because that's where they'd sit).
The term "POG" is allegedly being used less and less as a derogatory term these days in Perth; seen with the Dominion Club Committee changing its name to "POGS" (Perth Organisation of Gothic Societies). The maintainer of this FAQ is tempted to set up an online poll someday to see if this was seen with the good humour that it was supposed to be seen with (with some sort of domain name output to stop multiple votes, of course ;)).
Vampire stuff really isn't on-topic for aus.culture.gothic and discussion can be found on alt.vampyres (out the door and the fourth door on your right). These newsgroups have their own FAQs which can answer your question a whole lot better we can. If you're interested in vampirism, then our suggestion is that you check the alt.sex FAQ's section on sexually transmitted diseases before you start. Any hint of a cold sore or cut or abrasion on the inside of your mouth and you've made yourself a potential AIDS/Hep-C/etc carrier or sufferer.
This is perhaps the most annoyingly consistent thread to have plagued the alternative newsgroups. KMFDM stands for "Keiner Mitleid Fuer Die Mehrheit" or alternatively "Kein Mehrheit Fur Die Mitleid". Both translated into English loosely, mean: "No Pity For The Majority.." It does not mean "Kill Mother Fucking Depeche Mode," (much as we'd like it to), "Kittens Must Find Diluted Milk," "Krupps Must Felch Doctor Moriarty" or any of the other silly acronyms it's been assigned by people...
You may find people from aus.culture.gothic wearing a net.goth t-shirt or an Australian variant, but I wouldn't bet on it. It's still not seen as very goth to admit to being a goth, so having a t-shirt with the word "goth" on it is still a fashion statement yet to hit it big. At the moment, an agreed "sign" (suggested by Django Upton) is a black ribbon pinned to your attire somewhere. So far it's mainly been the Melbournians who've taken to this, but it may yet become The Sign.
The truth is: right now, there's no True Way of knowing whether the person standing next to you at a club is a net.goth or not. To recognise an Australian net.goth you'll possibly need to tag along to a net.goth "thing" in your local area. These happen from time to time, and are usually advertised in the newsgroup two weeks ahead of time.
Although not a complete list, aus.culture.gothic regulars have suggested:
Many of these bands may have resources on the Internet. Take a look at Part III of this FAQ.
In alt.gothic, Jen Radon contributed, "There are many things. It's classy and almost always appropriate dress for any social occasion. It's the absence of color. It's the color of nightmares and shadows and other places people don't usually like to exist. It's the color of the mysteries. It's the color of grief. It's the color of the infinite night sky. It's easy to hide in, to be unoticed. It doesn't tend to show dirt, and it's the uniform for Ninja warriors." I guess that's the romantic view of it.
Another more clinical answer is that all subcultures have their distinguishing characteristics which make their identities known. The Raver has the classic baggy wide-bottomed trousers (said to be worn to let heat dissipate during raves, but, it doesn't explain why you see them worn around the city in Winter), the Punk has the torn trousers and grotty jacket (supposedly because they "don't care 'bout nuffink") and the Rockerbilly has their slicked-back hair and equally polished leatherwear. It's all about identity and showing alliance with others. Just what it is about the subculture that makes people want to so obviously identify themselves to the world seems to vary with the individual.
No, brown is the new brown, and navy blue is the newer brown. (David Gerard) Black will always be the old black and the new black. It's an old and tired joke, and only a truly funny person should bother making jokes along those themes.
So, you want to explore the gothic subculture? Cool and groovy. What you really don't want to do is stand out too much in the crowd, just yet. There's a difference between 'showing your individuality' and missing the point entirely. Goth is a subculture. All subcultures have their social cues that indicate identity. There are some fundamentals with regard to colour-schemes, basic styles and footwear. Frankly speaking, black and white are the colours to go for. You can also mix the darker purples or red as highlights, however, black ought be predominant.
The following will make sure you don't stand out -too- much at a goth club:
Something you should be aware of is the extent to which the scene in all states in Australia are 'politically correct.' This doesn't mean that we all use dickie terms like "vertically challenged," etc. It just means that racism, sexism, homophobia and the like are all pretty heavily frowned upon.
It could be said that there's sometimes a pecking order, much the same as in any group (think of the social scene inherent in small towns or church groups and you've got the picture). Some of the people who are considered high in the echelons are really quite tedious and narrow-minded (some are not); some who are considered low in the ranks can often become the best of best friends can be (while others are uncouth creeps).
Don't think in terms of the so-called pecking order, treat people the way you'd like to be treated yourself; it's the only way to be. Watch Muriel's Wedding and learn. Never give up your self-respect for so-called friends and enjoy the ride :).
The Australian federal government's Bureau of Meteorology provides information on:
Information exists for New Zealand on:
The various states and territories in Australia, New Zealand and other areas, can be quite diverse. Regulars from aus.culture.gothic have described their areas with the following:
While one is liable to be subjected to highly amusing comments from passing motorists for such crimes and misdemenours as wearing black socks, or walking with a member of the opposite sex (who is also wearing black socks), the goth scene in Adelaide is of a reasonable size, if a little fragmented (and I use the phrase "a little" in the same context as "there is a little water in the Pacific Oceans"). When more than four converge in one area it is considered a party, and more than six could only be explained as coincidence. I've heard tell that goths from the outer Northern suburbs tend to be rather unkept, with dishevelled countenance, Yak urine flavoured trench coats and a penchant for Christian Death, Einsturzende Neubauten and Alien Sex Fiend, while city goths are prettier... well, they think they are at any rate. You'll tend not to find these Gawler goths frequenting the clubs (sorry, club)... as their preferred haunts seem to be basement pubs where the pints are bigger.
Adelaide has been described by Stephen King as the perfect setting for the sequel to Salem's Lot, and after seeing the AddleGoth potential (when we do manage to crawl out of the woodwork all at the same time) he could have a point.
Most Canberra goths go interstate alot, well, most Canberrans fullstop, go interstate a lot - to Sydney mostly, and Melbourne too - if you want a solid weekend of clubbing and shopping you have to! As a result the fashions here tend to relfect both those cities, generating a diverse range of looks. Some go for the romantic look, others the punk look, while there are many hangers on who just wear black. Lots of teased hair. Everyone knows each other at least by sight, though the group has become rather fragemented.
(Another one from Kevin J.E.V. Bonham) The nearest thing I've seen to intelligent nightlife out in this city lately was a live possum in St Davids Park. Unless you are into thrashy experimental noise, the music scene here is *dead*. People in Hobart go out at night for one main reason: to pick up. Strangely, very few of them succeed.
(Jo Cramer) No, there isn't a scene there. I grew up in Tasmania till the age of 18 and never once saw a goth or even heard about the concept, though the Cure and Sisters were favourites in my music collection. I haven't lived there in 5 yrs but go back often, and once, just once, I saw a guy in a Sisters t-shirt and balck jeans. Must have been from interstate like me, no way could he have got that t-shirt in Tasmania! There are however some great second hand clothes shops in Hobart, the best being "Bus Stop No.5" in Sandy Bay, got the greatest antique gloves, stole (sp?) and fan there. Record shoping can be fruitful too, as the shop owners don't know goth music at all, so you can come by a few bargains.
At times, Melbourne's lack of a definitive Gothic club/pub/official Small Dark Corner can cause some whines about the State of Things, but there is a regular ebb and flow of youngsters who insist on going shopping in full whiteface and Crow makeup, which keeps the locals amused and entertained in times of boredom. Generally, the goth scene is somewhat sporadic and at times ridiculously obscure, preferring to stay home on weekends, and you won't find anything/one before about 9.00 as most people tend to stay inside. But for the most, posing, posturing, drunken revelry and genuine senses of humor characterise the Melbourne goth scene, and if you can't do any of that, why are you reading this?
Over the past 2-3 years, the goth scene has been fairly stably homed at the Dominion social club, The Loft and The Cell. Perth is small enough that news can run the scene quickly, yet large enough that there's always the joy of meeting new people... The scene's former diversity during the early 1990s has dissipated into the more formal goth/industrial genres as the scene has grown in size. The emergence of Perth as one of the largest goth/industrial scenes in Australia is an odd but true story.
One problem in the Sydney scene seems to be the lack of enthusiasm for live acts. Many bands have complained of small audiences or lifeless people just staring back at them. Some Goths here tend to be just a little overly self-conscious. Sydney's best aspect is that if you go into certain record stores you will always bump into someone you know. And walking along the streets, staring at the ground, you can notice some black boots with black jeans or stockings, look up, and see a familiar face.
There tends to be an unwritten rule in Auckland that you do not speak to other people, unless you have been previously introduced (and therefore your credentials are approved ;) or you have some sort of connection. This is why a lot of newcomers to Auckland think people are very snobbish. The flipside to not having a proper goth-scene is that we don't have the rigid hierarchy that seems to go hand-in-hand with it. Generally, most goth people are pretty friendly, and there's not a lot of gother-than-thou that goes on.
If you have a differing opinion, send the FAQ maintainer some updated info.
If you're a resident of a major city in Australasia that hasn't been covered, please send email to write a proper report of your city.
aus.culture.gothic was created on December 4th 1995 via a newgroup message sent by Mike Groenewig, the Workstation & Network Officer at Murdoch University's Computing and Network Centre (where Peter Caffin then held his internet account).
The FAQ was the first message to the new newsgroup. However, propagation of aus.culture.gothic outside murdoch.edu.au didn't occur until later when it was added to added to Phil Herrings then dominant checkgroups list. Thus, first FAQ posting went mostly unread.
Maccad (maccad#goth.net) created that and a number of others for use by net.goths on their pages. His web site is at http://www.goth.net/~maccad/
Currently, the additions engine is being modified, so to add a new review or suggest the removal of an obsolete entry, send email to ceinwine#excite.com